If you don't agree with the healthcare reform...

Just a healthy discussion -- that can also be a healthy debate... though I'd like to see no arguing (can't say that won't happen... )

I just wondered, for those who don't support healthcare reform, do you not support it at all? Or what parts would you like to see changed if anything? Which parts do you disagree the most with?

I'll post my own opinion in just a minute in a new message.

I know for me personally, I do not agree with universal healthcare. But I DO believe that there is reform that needs to occur. Mostly dealing with insurance companies.

I, for one, have a very difficult time finding insurance companies to cover me due to my "pre-existing" condition (classic migraines with aura). Granted the only thing my insurance has ever had to cover for these migraines, when they finally agreed to cover them (only after I majorly raised my deductible) is my prescription medication.

I now have another condition (endometriosis) which, though it wasn't a pre-existing condition, my insurance has fought me tooth and nail on covering. They fought me on covering the surgery. The fought me on paying the doctor. They are currently fighting me on taking medication that may or may not be the only means of saving the possibility of my ever having children. And they WILL NOT cover it.

I have a cousin whose wife is 28 years old and because of a condition she has had since childhood she has already met her LIFETIME deductible. Therefore, no insuranc company will except her and she's left to pay everything on her own... leaving her family in debt and having to claim bankruptcy just to survive.

I know a family whose child has cancer. At the age of FIVE, their child has already met her lifetime deductible.

I may not agree with all of the healthcare reform ideas, but it's clear to me that there are big changes that need to happen. I've talked to so many individuals who are healthy who just simply do not know what it is like to have to struggle with an insurance company... insurance that you pay for EVERY month... and have them refuse to help you.

I am holding out hope for the no pre-existing conditions clause for insurance. I think that's the best part of this whole thing.

I also think that while I don't agree with completely universal healthcare, I do believe that healthcare should be available to every single person. Regardless of their ability to pay.

No one should have to die because they cannot afford to pay for medication, or treatment or surgery. Period.

I honestly don't know what the answer is for the problems we have. I do not want universal/govt ran health care, but I, too, see a huge need for changes in our system as it is now. I think one way would be to allow insurance companies to cross state lines. It would allow more competition and therefore would create lower prices and better coverage. Simple rules of supply and demand. The idea of someone dieing just because they can't afford health care seems so wrong to me. Maybe there could be some sort of govt program for those that can't get insurance for certain kinds of illnesses... the kind that have to be treated in order to sustain life, but where there are no insurance companies that will cover them. I don't know... I don't think we are entitled to insurance/care for every thing, like a normal dr visit, or treatment for a bug that you will get over, but I can't say, as a Christian, that anyone should be turned away from treatment for things that can kill them. I think there are things that we simply have to be responsible for ourselves, and then there are things that we should be able to have help with, too.
It really bothers me when those that are already on the govt welfare program to abuse it - for example, around here (and I'm sure elsewhere) every night there are kids brought in to the ER bc they have colds or low grade fevers. These things can be taken care of at home, but bc THEY aren't paying for it they'll abuse the system and think nothing of it. This is just one small example, but there are many more.
Like I said, we have to be responsible for the things we CAN be. That in itself would help a lot I think.

I'm going to be brief as I always get questioned for my views, albeit similar to many others.

I am against Obama's plan. I am for health care reform, just not how he is going to go about it.

Kentuckychick - you mention those that you've talked to that are healthy don't understand what it's like because they have great insurance, etc.... I have been in both places. I have been on my own since 17 (semi-on my own since 15) and had no insurance for the longest time - at a time when I was suffering ovarian cysts and migraines. Then I got insurance, but I had "pre-existing" conditions, of course, and my personal insurance premiums were atrocious. I tried to pay them on my own, but it was hard and had to drop the insurance. Then when my husband and I got married and he got a great job, I was able to get on his insurance and they did not consider pre-existing conditions. I've had GREAT health care coverage ever since.

So I know what it's like on both ends, but I am STILL against his plan. I've given my explanations in various threads of my reasons for not agreeing with the plan, so I won't share them here again.

I believe as well no one should die because they don't have health coverage. I agree health insurance needs to be looked at and reformed and I work in the industry. I will also say that I believe in major tort reform. The tons of ridiculous medical malpractice lawsuits that go through the courts daily only drives up premiums for everyone else. It's disgusting and every time I come across cases that I have to write positions papers about (regarding tort reform) angers me even more.

I'll stop there.

This post has been edited by coasterqueen on Sep 11 2009, 05:24 AM

It really doesn't matter, the people of the USA won't be happy anyway. One way they can't afford the money to pay for the treatment, and the other way they won't be able to take the time to wait their turn for treatment.

It's not going to work. I call Future Epic Fail due to the public, not due to the programs.

The reformed healthcare plan sounds almost like the plan we have in place in Canada... and from all your reactions to our wait times.. ya'll ain't gonna be pleased even if you're looking forward to the "benefits" of everyone having equal healthcare chances....

You make healthcare available to everyone - everyone gets a chance to use it.. wait times will be drastically augmented, you will no longer just be able to "call your pedi", you will be stuck waiting, like we are, until you are bumped up to more urgent. You want an appointment with your doctor? forget same day, forget same week even.. you might see him in a couple weeks, and if it's urgent, well go to an urgentcare clinic, where you'll have to wait 6 hours because a bunch of people are there for useless reasons but still need to be run through triage takin gup the time and space that people who actually need to see a doctor could use. It makes me sick how many people go to the doctor's for a stupid cough, only to be told to buy a bottle of cough syrup.

Equal access healthcare... it only SOUNDS good, until you're the one waiting 12 hours, especially if you're used to being seen right away.

Just curious Rocky, have you always only known the universal health care that Canada provides?

ETA: I think it's nice how you can be so negative towards Americans and how they react to things when you don't even live in this country. I have had opinions on Canada's health care system, but my opinions are based on ALL of those I've heard from IN REAL LIFE and online. Some like it, some don't. But I'm not saying anything negative towards Canadians, just their health care system.

This post has been edited by coasterqueen on Sep 11 2009, 06:05 AM

Just curious Rocky, have you always only known the universal health care that Canada provides?

ETA: I think it's nice how you can be so negative towards Americans and how they react to things when you don't even live in this country. I have had opinions on Canada's health care system, but my opinions are based on ALL of those I've heard from IN REAL LIFE and online. Some like it, some don't. But I'm not saying anything negative towards Canadians, just their health care system.

Ummm, how am I being negative towards the Americans?

For the reactions, I'm basing it on the words that you guys here at PC have written... both in reaction to OUR wait times when us canucks post about them, and about your own experiences.. how is me saying you guys aren't going to be happy negative, when that's what you guys are saying? Why is it so wrong if I say it, when you guys are saying it about yourselves? How is me saying americans won't be happy being negative?

Holy crap!

To the original question about my experiences with healthcare, for what it's worth, I lived in Germany. I've experienced the healthcare there. I've also lived in Florida for nearly a year. I've experienced the healthcare there. I've also had provincial healthcare coverage only, and I've had coverage through my federal government employment. We've also had a healthcare reform lately, a lot of services have been restricted, or cut altogether, such as eye care exams.

As for your other comments... ya know what, forget replying to me Karen, I'm done with this. You turned yourself into a victim with my post, and if that's how you read it, whatever I don't care. I wrote about how the system here is, and that based on YOUR reactions to OUR posts about OUR healthcare, which is what YOUR healthcare is heading towards... and you somehow turned that into some "Rocky's bashing americans" fest. Way to go, way to plant ideas in other people's heads.

Maybe there should have been a disclaimer, something about how only Americans can post, because apparently canadian healthcare being described is inappropriate.

This conversation is over, it is going to go nowhere.

I actually wonder if something more along the lines of what the mayo clinic does wouldn't be the best(better) idea. Having doctors have set salaries that aren't affected by how many patients they treat or how many tests they run, but rather the quality of the care they give to the patients they DO recieve. It keeps doctors from running tests that aren't necessary or from referring patients to countless other "friend" doctors to boost their salaries.

The mayo clinic is one of the most reknowned facilities in the US for being the absolute best at what it does. They are also known to run less diagnostic tests then nearly any other facility and it's doctors are known for working together and pooling resources more than in most other facilities.

In the long run it's all cheaper for both the patient and the insurance company and the quality of care is no worse, if not better.

I know Obama has mentioned the Mayo clinic before in speeches... I wish they'd look more into something like that.

Rocky, there is no reason to be dramatic. I'm only saying that as the rules on this board state that you can base your opinion without being so negative towards others. Say "ya all ain't gonna be happy.......blah blah.......epic failure due to the public....blah blah" that is negative and I KNOW I'm not the only one that feels this way.

Here is the original question "I just wondered, for those who don't support healthcare reform, do you not support it at all? Or what parts would you like to see changed if anything? Which parts do you disagree the most with?"

A great question I might add and one that can be answered civilly. Where did you answer it without being so negative towards how Americans aren't happy with anything type of remarks??

ETA: I'll just walk away from the discussion since I apparently made you so upset. I seem to be the only one to do that to everyone these days.

This post has been edited by coasterqueen on Sep 11 2009, 07:05 AM

I didn't think you were implying anything towards americans... but I do know that there are often times we already have to wait. And healthcare is already available to pretty much anyone (it's harder to get without insurance, but there's medicare/medicaid available already). It's nothing at this point to have to wait an hour or two at an urgent clinic (but I've also only waited 20 minutes on a slow day) and the same with the ER. I've known people to wait 4 hours... and when I went in with an abnormal heartrate in Feb. they had me back within 5 minutes.

My grandfather had to stay in a bed in the ER for two days last spring before they finally moved him to a bed on the stroke unit of the hospital because it was full.

I'm not saying this about you Rocky, but I've talked to some individuals who seem to think in America you can just walk right on into a doctor's office or ER and be seen... it's not like that at all.

Most often, thankfully you can see your primary physicians and pediatricians same day or soon after when you or your children are ill... but getting an appointment with a specialist, I've had to wait two months before.

We already have a somewhat "universal" healthcare system... it's just not in the same way that Canada's is. The government doesn't pay for the healthcare for everyone.

I definitely want to see some kind of healthcare reform. Idk enough about Obama's plan but TLCDad had said quite a bit about it in the past and what he said sounded really good.
I do see healthcare as a right and not a privilege, I know some may not agree with me on that but I do think it's the responsibility of the nation as a whole to ensure that every citizen has access to quality healthcare without worrying about the cost.

I think for the most part you are right, we live in a country where no one is ever satisfied. I would gladly wait a little while longer for an appt if it meant someone who needed urgent care was being seen and they really needed it. I've had to wait and haven't been able to get same day or same week appts before, even for a sudden illness that I knew I needed antibiotics or something for. Heck it takes like 5 months to get into my OB/GYN's office for a pap smear.

I'm for reform, and I'm not sure about the details I'd support yet. Probably any bill that improves regulation would get my vote, but I want health care to be affordable and available to the unemployed and self-employed as well. Just one point, speaking as one who has fabulous health insurance through my employer---I still have to wait to get in, and if I need to be seen urgently, I'm not going to see my own doc but someone else in her practice. Same with our ped's office. I've waited weeks to get in to a lab to have tests done. I live in a city with two premiere hospitals and it is still the case that I've had to wait a long time to see doctors. I have to schedule my appointment for a physical months in advance, and there is a long wait for referrals for mammograms or specialists. Weeks, sometimes months. So I'm not sure things are all that different under private insurance. I'd have to experience both systems to know for sure how wait times compare.

I don't see Americans as never satisfied, I think we're just typical of a large group of people where you can't satisfy EVERYONE. This board has less than 100 people actively posting and there aren't many threads where everyone has the same opinion.

I've been on both sides of the fence as well, and even now the kids are insured but DH and I aren't and it sucks.

I agree we need reform and don't know what the best solution is, at this moment I still think there is a lot more work to be done before I could personally say I was happy with any of the proposals. Regulation is a huge factor for me, and I do not want government run healthcare. I want to pay for my own healthcare and make it affordable enough that others can pay for theirs.

This post has been edited by luvmykids on Sep 11 2009, 07:48 AM

ITA. you can't please everyone. And no matter how Good the changes turn out to be, people will still find fault. People don't like change in general.

I don't know what the answer is, I do think that the insurance companies are screwing over people and making profits doing it. Its sick, sad and wrong.

Thank you for understanding what I was trying to say.

Our government doesn't pay for everything. It pays for BASIC needs.

It is provincially mandated, first and foremost, so some provinces have more access or less access to different services. I believe any major orthodontics work if you're under 8 is paid for in Quebec, but not in Ontario, I believe the once a year eye exams is still being paid for in Alberta, but it is not in Ontario...I think Ontario only pays every 2nd year.. maybe every 3rd, I don't know. I am not sure, but there are differences depending on where you live.

I'm also for some change but NOT obama's plan which is going to cost 9BILLION dollars and we are already in a MASSIVE amount of debt as it is.

No doubt all of the lawsuits are to blame for a lot if the cost of insurance. When something is wrong with a patient the dr. has to order virtually every test under the sun, even unneeded ones just to cover his butt so he won't get sued if he misses something. If we would realize that drs. are human and capable of mistakes just like the rest of us and not sue for every little thing that doesn't go just how you expect it. Pure negligence, sure, sue for that. But for things that could have gone a different way if this or that had been done a little differently... well, like I said, drs. are just human too.
There are so many aspects that have to be considered when reforming something so massive and so important... I just don't know that we'll ever get it quite right, but I do know that I don't want anything pushed through just bc it will be a change. Change without thought is no good to anyone.

I"m not so much for healthcare reform as I am for regulating what the hospitals can charge for their services. I'm sorry but $10.00 for a non- narcotic pill is a bit much. I have been on both sides of the fence. When I had my car accident I did not have health care coverage. I went to get help with my perscriptions and with home health care items I was turned down because I "made too much money". I was in a wheel chair with both legs stright in front of me and my right arm in a cast. Now I have duel covered. I have employer provided coverage and coverage through my DH's work. So no I don't want govt regulated health care. Why can't they take the already exsisting medicaid and make it to where average Joe citizen of the US does qualify.

I also don't see where we , as Americans, are never happy. There were plenty of things in this country that did make us happy.

This post has been edited by holley79 on Sep 11 2009, 12:15 PM

That is because they are over-compensating for those patients w/o insurance. Hospitals are required by law to treat people who come into ERs, insurance or not. To make up for bills that will never be paid, they over-charge the people who CAN pay. So, I always find it ironic to hear people against universal coverage say that they shouldn't have to pay for other people's health care. To which I say, "You already are."

That is because they are over-compensating for those patients w/o insurance. Hospitals are required by law to treat people who come into ERs, insurance or not. To make up for bills that will never be paid, they over-charge the people who CAN pay. So, I always find it ironic to hear people against universal coverage say that they shouldn't have to pay for other people's health care. To which I say, "You already are."

You also have those that over use the health care system for illegal reasons. Going to the ER for "back pain" to get pills. In turn they run up bills they never intend to pay which in turn as with everything else we as tax payers have to pick up the tab. Sorry but those who are doing this are not tax payers because they do not even work.

I see nothing wrong with this post. It's the truth. Americans (and I'm one) want instant gratification. Heck, if it takes longer then 15 minutes for our food at a sit-down restaruant you are already talking about how slow the place is. Movies uploaded...now. Music...now. Buy...now. Get in touch with this person...now. Change in America...NOW. It would be really hard to believe that anyone who does want reform would be happy with waiting for service. You can say you will until it's you that are waiting. I am one who wants reform but I'm not sure Pres. Obama is going about it the right way. I'm hoping he knows what he's doing but there doesn't seem to be anyone else stepping up with a plan. A lot of people saying we need it but nobody wanting to put their idea up on the block.
Who knows.

For those of you who want some kind of reform, but believe that "Obama is going about it the wrong way, what specifically do you think he should be doing differently? I'm just curious--this is a genuine question, not a snarky rhetorical one.

I have a tough time with these questions because I DO believe we need some sort of universal health care. However, I'm against socialized medicine across the board; that is a plan that competes on every level with private insurers. Once you take the level off the playing field in the market you'll eventually be left with the sole survivor - the one with the government budget line.

I also believe that basic health care is a right that should be extended to all citizens. I don't think that non-citizens have a right to tax payer supported programs if they are not among the tax paying supporters. Take that argument for what you will, because I'm not opposed to making some of our immigrants legal citizens. Perhaps there could be some requirement for a plan for such illegals that is paid for by those that employ them - now that would go a ways towards leveling the playing field for domestic laborers that feel illegal immigrants are taking their jobs.

Now, for the sticky part. I don't feel that everyone should have equal access to every medical program or technology or gadget or new experimental treatment that's out there. I think the universal health care requirement should extend to basic good health care practices, including disallowing insurance company exemptions for preexisting conditions. Preexisting conditions are more than likely in today's health care scene where everyone knows everything about everyone and everyone has some sort of preexisting something. I think it's OK for a tiered health care insurance system wherein treatment costs for elective surgical procedures and treatments can be figured into options. This can't happen under a government run system, and if a government run system is the major competitor, insurance for these treatments will soon cease to exist.

My health care plan, while not the greatest, is very good, and many elective procedures are covered that deal with quality of life. Quality of life versus a healthy life state is difficult to quantify, but the insurance companies and doctors seem pretty good at that now.

I know I'm going to get blasted for this, but we really NEED tort reform with any health care package. Malpractice insurance rates DO negatively effect cost. The automotive insurance industry (in NJ anyway) already has placed value on everything from a finger tip to a life, and while that seems a little cold, it's real and can be budgeted for. Multi-million dollar malpractice claims have to be reeled in. Don't get me wrong, I believe that some greedy docs have more punishment coming to them than a tort rated settlement could provide. In such cases the loss should be paid and the injured should have the right to sue the doc civilly.

Now for the final OMG I'm certain to provoke. Hospitals should have the right and responsibility to defer emergency room treatment to clinics for non-life threatening illnesses. Flu and colds should not tax the emergency room or the hospitals unless the patient is respiratory compromised.

Now to the clinics. Here we have an excellent pay as you can clinic that is well supported by the local medical community. Everywhere should have this! Perhaps instead of creating another government bureaucracy to insure, the government could give tax incentives to medical professionals to give their time and expertise to clinical service. These clinics could also benefit from government grants and/or tax relief. For instance if a certain percentage of care given in a clinic is uncompensated, then the taxes paid by the clinic for compensated care can be shaved. A stronger clinical care system would ease the burden on the emergency rooms and provide basic health care in a more responsible and appropriate manner.

I'm sure there are other ways to lower health care costs, and some of them are included in the Obama plan. One is in streamlining the billing and procedural process to reduce paperwork. For every procedure that is done for my family we get three pieces of paper from three different entities. It's ridiculous.

Another I LIKE is to require that employers provide insurance or pay a penalty - the proceeds of which should go toward providing health care to those without insurance. That the WalMart empire refuses to extend health care to its employees is a disgrace, and they're just one example of a company that gets rich without a care toward the quality of life of their employees.

This might cause some eyebrows to raise, but I LIKE the so-called death committee idea. Not for nothing, but most elder folks that I've dealt with find comfort in knowing that they have a plan for what and how much health care entities should do to extend life in cases where they aren't able to communicate it themselves. This isn't cold hearted. This is simply taking the wishes of the elder and making everyone aware of them, so that family is spared the agony of making such decisions based upon perceived notions of what "grandpappy would want."

It also might be a good idea to enforce a federal standard of care and cost (though demographically this could be difficult). Right now, if I were to become injured my insurance company has agreements with companies in every other state to ensure that my basic medical needs will be met in emergency. That is a huge benefit of my current insurance program. My old program didn't do that. If I got hurt out of NJ, I was out of network and a whole bunch of red tape kicked in wherein getting payment to the providers became a real battle. The feds can fix this fairly easily by setting fixed cost schedules for emergency treatment and requiring that insurers everywhere accept that.

Those without jobs should be able to utilize existing Medic-Aid and Medi-Care programs without any stigma and no medical facility should be licensed by any state that does not accept those programs. No kid or senior citizen should have to hunt for a doctor's office that takes the government health care program. It should be a given, for the sake of public health.

This post has been edited by redchief on Sep 11 2009, 06:53 PM