Class Size, How big is too big?

We moved to a rural community in Indiana a few years ago primarily to get into what was considered a pretty good school system. Well, the community has experienced some rapid growth and the kids are now in classes that average 28 to 30 kids per grade with one teacher, no aides, and kids with veyr special needs mixed in. We think this is way too many kids for 3rd, 4th and 7th graders but was wondering what the rest of you think? Do we make do? We could move as thera are other options near by, but what about friends and starting over at a new school?

Thanks for sharing your opinions...

WOW that is way too many !! It should be 10 (non special needs ) to 1 teacher. At least arround here. and 3 students to 1 teacher for special needs.

My older boys have a class size of about 18-20. I think 28-30 is too many. I would look into other options if there are no helpers or aids in the classrooms.

Well....I grew up in California and that was the average when I was growing up....and we rarely had teachers aids. Could you or your wife possibly help out a couple days a week. Thats what I plan to do when the kids start school...volonteer my help.

I think that is too many, which is why our children will (hopefully) not be attending our public schools, even though they are excellent. It may not be as bad for the 7th grader, but IMO K-5 needs to be smaller.
Are you in Hamilton or Boone county by chance? I'm a Hoosier myself. I only as because that seems to be where the major building is happening around here.

This post has been edited by ammommy on Aug 23 2005, 10:29 AM

Delaware County.

We'd volunteer but it has been our perspective that the school doesn't really encourage parent volunteers, other than for special events. Our state budget hasn't helped things either. I'm just concerned that they'll get lost in the crowd.

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, this whole idea of intergrating special needs kids into the classroom (No child left behind) sounds good on the surface, but the distraction caused and teacher focus gets shifted so dramatically that the average kids are the ones being left behind now.

This post has been edited by IndyDad on Aug 23 2005, 10:34 AM

Yikes.

Hopefully my kids will go to a private school (registration is in January!!! ) and the average is between 15 - 18 kids a class, with a few exceptions... they won`t say no to 1 or 2 extra students if that`s all there is - but if there`s like 22 students, they`ll split it into 2 classes.

I have never heard of a school that doesn't like parents participation and help...thats wierd. I would think twice about moving because this is bound to happen in other places also. You can't move everytime the student to teacher ratio is off...kwim...

I htink that special needs kids should have more individualized attention, just my opinion.

When I was in school, there was different levels or learning, from most basic, to most advanced:

Fundamental
General
Advanced
Enriched
Specialized

I was in specialized classes pretty much all my life. In french, it`s called 'douance'.
It meant that there were fewer of us, and we learned 'differently', as in - the teacher gave us the work, and we`d do it. If we had questions, we'd ask - the teachers didn`t need to go over it with us, we caught on to most things on our own... it was a different grading system too. a 65% grade in specialized class was about equivalent to a 90% in a regular general class.

The fundamental classes were also very low in numbers - about 15 students in each class, because the students needed more explanations, more one on one time etc....

General and advanced classes were the most crowded at about 24... because it`s what the average student was in.

To say that you have a developmentally challenged child in the same class as an advanced learning child is just pointless - the teacher will be too quick for the challenged student, and not quick enough for the advanced child...resulting in failings both sides - one because he/she doesn`t understand, the other because he/she`s bored.

What about the impact of moving to a new school versus staying put? I see this as more of an issue for our 7th grade daughter than for the others.

That is about the sizes when ii grew up -

I wouldn't move if you like the school and neighborhood other wise....Think about it....there is always going to be a year when this happens.....moving everytime is going to cost you alot.

No Child Left Behind is NOT special needs kids being intergrated into the classroom.....That is the federal legislation named IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities Act) which has been in effect for decades.NCLB is the legislation that makes schools responsible for their kids failing standardized tests....and setting the standards for those tests. In the interest of being polite I wont type what comes to mind right now...but I will say this....my son is "Special Needs" and is intergrated into a "normal" middle school classroom. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS TEACHERS come up to me when I'm in the halls to tell me what a delite he is and how they wish they could clone him! He is smart and responsible and respectful which is more then I can say for the "normal" kids! He just has a different way of learning then the average child does. His needs do NOT take away from the needs of the other children...in fact he is known for helping the teachers and setting a good example...he will pull out a book and start reading if he is done with his work whereas the "normal" students will fool around. He is a straight A student because he works 10 times harder then his peers...and loves to learn. Besides children are only integrated into classrooms if they can handle it...otherwise they go to a "resource" room and are taught by Special Ed. teachers who are trained to deal with special needs children. The schools get a great deal of money from the Federal Government for having Special Ed. classes so their resources do not take away from the other kids. If you are having trouble with overcrowding its not because of Special Ed. children being placed in your childs classroom....(they have been integrated for decades) its because your school district doesnt have the money, the space or the people to teach.

Me too..and I did great. I'm also from Indiana and the county we live in the classes run the same about 25-30 depending on # of kids in that grade

In Az the max class size is 32. When every class is at the max at a grade level, the school must hire a new teacher.

I am currently sitting at 22 Kindergarteners in our full day program.

And Thank you Nummymommy for clarifying the NCLB/IDEA information. I was just about to do that when I saw your post.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm sure your child would be great to have in any classroom. The problem I have is that the school does not do what you suggest and pull the kids out who can not handle it. There is one kid with a learning disability and very disruptive behavioral patterns who easly garners 50% of the teachers attention. This kid should be pulled out into a Special Ed class but is not. These are the type of kids that should not be integrated in with the rest of the class until they prove they can handle it. The "normal" kids are just as special you know.

I'd like to stick to the original question though. Can kids learn when the class size is about 30, especially younger kids? Seems like everything I've read says no.

Sure they can learn in a class that size. Can they excel? Well, if a child asserts him or herself by asking questions when they don't understand something or is willing to stay after class to get help (something i did a lot in HS and Jr High) if needed, then yes, I think a child can excel. It will take much more parental involvement at home, possibly, but it can be done. Unfortunately, no matter what school system you are in, it seems that the "average" kids are the ones who can fall through the cracks easily. The children at either end of the spectrum get special attention. The average child is the one who needs involved parents to encourage and praise, IMO.

Yes, I think kids CAN learn in a class size of 30. Now is it ideal? Of course not, but it doesn' have to be detrimental to the child. Basically, it really depends on a few factors...the child's ability to focus and desire to learn/participate, the teacher...some are better thaan others at keeping the kids focused and on track, and what students they are placed with...meaning if they are in an average type of class with the average students it should be OK, but if there are an unusually high amount of trouble makers or high needs kids, then it could be a problem. Anyhow, I wouldn't move jut because the class sizes are large, but if you are unhappy with the schools altogether, then you should consider it. If you aren't happy with a specific teacher or the group of kids then you could request a classroom change, but then again, part of going to school is teaching the kids to adapt to different environments. Good luck!

Edited to add that I think parent volunteers is essential to any good elementary school experience, especially when you must have large class sizes, and I would hesitate to live in any area that frown upon parent volunteers! I also believe that no matter how large or small a class size is, that perents supplementing the kids education at home with homework involvement or whatever, is the best way to help kids succeed.

This post has been edited by momof3angels on Aug 24 2005, 05:52 PM

Wow, if you have 10:1 that is an exceptionally well staffed school system! In general, I think most classes tend to gave maybe 20 kids to 1 teacher plus an aid for Kindergarten, then no aid for first grade, then from there the class sizes tend to go up in size, with 30 kids being very common by the time they get to high school, and some jr highs.