lockdown?!?!

I had never even heard of lockdown drills before.

i believe that. the media is famous for distorting facts.

when my kids' school implemented locking all doors during school hours and taught "stranger danger", i supported that. they have a video surveillance system at the office door and people need to be buzzed in. great safety measure imo.

Marie, their school is in an affluent suburb of toronto.. where i live is a so-so part of mississauga... i don't see the events of my neighborhood happening in their school district...they'd stick out like a sore thumb. i guess i am with Jennifer in that there has to be a better way to teach my kids safety than hide under a desk and close the curtains. i don't like fear being forced upon my kids.

anyways, thanks for ALL the input. it has given me food for thought. i haven't discussed anything with the boys yet til i wrap my head around the idea first lol.

Jen I just have to respectfully disagree. Now most, if not all, school have solid doors. When these doors are shut and locked there is no way for a gunman or wacko to get in. Many school have even bricked low windows so that no one can fire into them.

By having lockdown drills what we are teaching the kids is to get into a safe place, be still, and wait. If a gunman were to take over a class at least the other classes would be safe and that person would not be able to just walk from room to room killing as happened at Columbine. It's not about hiding under desks - its about securing the building, and, unfortunately, minimizing people in harm's way.

BTW - I totally agree that its stinks that our kids have to grow up in a world with this but its reality. I'd much rather deal with it than bury more kids that might have been saved had some precautions been in place.



This post has been edited by Bamamom on Apr 4 2007, 05:12 PM

Rhonda, i completely see what you're saying and i get where you're coming from but another issue i have here is that i don't think teachers and a school administration are in a position to have a lockdown drill...if homeland security or some similar organization came to run the drill, i'd have to say at least they know what they're doing but how can a group of teachers know how to handle these sorts of things? and this is not meant to disrespect teachers in the least...it's like asking me to come up with some new surgical procedure when i have no experience or knowledge of surgery outside of sitting in on various surgeries when i studied to be a doctor some years back, kwim?
IMO, this is just something schools are doing to reduce their liability should anything happen...if there is some problem the first thing the school board would say is, "well, we had those lockdown drills, we did all we could...." i don't think it has much effect in practical terms but again JMO and i do respect your opinion too.
ETA--i recently visited a Catholic school here in Miami during school hours where there were children everywhere because i had advertised in their gala magazine and i had to come and pay for my ad and i was amazed and appalled at how easily i got inside. there was no security, no locked gate, nothing! this is a much bigger problem than lockdown drills or lack thereof IMO.
i also want to add that i am not implying that Catholic schools are inferior or don't care about their kids or anything like that, i only mentioned that it was Catholic to stress that it's a private school with a very high yearly tuition and you'd think they'd be inclined to use some of that money to provide for better security.

This post has been edited by cameragirl21 on Apr 4 2007, 06:05 PM

I think part of the point is so that teachers, as well as students, are better prepared to handle situations where a lockdown might be necessary. I trust most teachers to know how to gather kids, lock doors, and follow protocol for something like that, just as I trust them to be able to handle a fire. Most instances that require a lockdown aren't matters of national security anyway. The schools here have input from local authorities as to how exactly a lockdown or fire should be handled so it's not like they're winging it.

One of our most affluent public schools recently had a real lockdown because of an incident that started downtown...the suspect led police on a chase that ended up near the school so it was, as someone mentioned, locked down to prevent him from trying to hide there. My point is only that even if circumstances that require a measure like that wouldn't normally originate in the neighborhood they can end up there.

I don't like the thought of my children being taught to be afraid but TBH if it became necessary I'd rather they'd done it before and I think the fact they'd done it before would lessen the trauma of an actual lockdown.

This post has been edited by luvmykids on Apr 4 2007, 06:51 PM

The teachers don't just get together and figure out how to do a lockdown. They have people who figure out the procedure- like cops, etc.

True. Here the plans are formulated by the county office of emergency management.

Exactly - and they are trained in how to handle these situations by either local law enforcement or federal law enforcement.

It IS too easy to walk into most schools. I know around here measure are being taken to make it harder but that takes time and LOTS of money. Many of these schools were built in the 60's and 70's and it will require massive remodeling to make them secure. Many of them are impossible to secure unless you just put a 7 foot tall razor wire fence around the perimeter and check each car as it comes in - and even then I'm not sure it would be completely secure.

It's a tough issue no doubt. But I think debate like this is healthy and helpful in solving the problems.

i guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. i see and respect your opinion but like i said, i just don't believe this method is effective and i don't think it serves its intended purpose. i do think schools should be investing money on very high security measures, which i believe will be more effective.
there's a local Jewish school here that does just what you said--has a fence around it and every car that enters is stopped. the handful of times i've gone there they've asked me what my business is there, called to verify that i do have an appointment with whomever i said i am there to see and asked to see my picture ID and this is IMO how it should be, this is far more effective than these drills.
now obviously Jewish schools are more likely to be targets of potential terrorist activities and it's already happened in some areas throughout the country so they have to have higher security but i think nowadays you can't keep kids too safe and this is a model that should be followed in both public and private schools throughout the country.
you know who is really suitable to teach safety measures with regard to both gunmen and terrorists? the Israeli army...and i'm willing to bet that they'd laugh at these lockdown exercises.
there are plenty of retired Israeli army officers here in the US, i run into them all the time and if schools really want to be safe maybe they should hire these guys to run these types of exercise drills, not a cop who may or may not know what do if s/he were in the situation him/herself.
again, JMO of course.
ETA--just wanted to add that i've never served in the Israeli army and i am only speculating on what their opinions would be based on discussions i've had with them about their experiences with gunmen and terror. i am in no way licensed or qualified to speak on behalf of the Israeli army so my opinions and words do not necessarily reflect what any Israeli army soldier or officer thinks or would say. this is purely my opinion based on information that i've compiled over years of discussions, that's all.

This post has been edited by cameragirl21 on Apr 5 2007, 05:45 AM

Im on both sides of the fence....I agree with Kimberly...I am angry that this is what our world has become. On the other hand, because of our world today...I like the drills. I don't think it matters where you live anymore..the world is a dangerous place. Always expect the unexpected in my opinion. Look at the shooting at the Amish community...that man just snapped.

hmm... well I would like to say that I'm all for it... but it sounds to me like from a lot of what I've read here that this seems like a scary sort of thing (or at the very least something that could be scary for the children).

I remember being in about 8th grade and having one of these "lockdowns" at school, only it wasn't a drill. A stranger had come into the school and the teachers and principal were concerned enough to do the lockdown. The thing is, the only reason we knew about it was because we were old enough to know, the younger kids (my brother at the time and our carpool kids included) didn't even know that anything was going on.

The principal came over the loud speaker and said something along the lines of "Teachers excuse this interuption but there will be a mandatory meeting in room seven after school today." At which point our teacher (we were in the library) got up calmly, walked to the door, shut it and locked it and shut the windows. She then told us to come join her on the carpeted area (never mentioned that anything was wrong or out of the ordinary) and went on to teach. After about 30 minutes the principal came back on and said that the "meeting" had been canceled. This was obviously the "all clear" signal.

We figured it out because we were 13 and 14 year olds... we knew something was up and at the end of the day the teacher discussed it with us and answered our questions and concerns. They did it that way because they said there's no need to cause mass chaos or confusion and concern.

I just don't understand why things can't be this way anymore. What good does it really do us to have alarms and drills for something like this? I understand having them with the teachers (clearly our teachers knew EXACTLY what to do) so that they remain calm and collected, but why put that sort of fear into the children?

Heck it's hard enough for the kids to remember what to do in a fire alarm or tornado warning... I would think it would be much easier for the teachers to maintain calm if the kids just weren't aware at all.

Just to add... in that process, though we all knew something was amiss, I don't remember any of us being scared or afraid. I think because the teacher was so calm and composed and went on the way she did, we were all okay.

This post has been edited by Kentuckychick on Apr 5 2007, 11:22 AM

I'm willing to agree to disagree but I'm not sure why you're assuming a lockdown is only a result of a terrorist attack....right now out of the total number of lockdowns that have occurred 100% are due to other events. At the Jewish school you mentioned, say a common criminal is on the run and shoots down the guard. Then what?

And IMHO, local authorities such as SWAT teams who respond when this does arise are fully capable of implementing these programs, it doesn't take a retired Israeli soldier to teach school staff how to deal with the situations they are most likely to encounter.

I know you're thinking of worst case scenarios, and yes, in that case it would be a different ballgame. But the general purpose of a lockdown procedure is for a great many other situations.

Quote from Jen's post - not a cop who may or may not know what do if s/he were in the situation him/herself.

Quote from Luvmykids - And IMHO, local authorities such as SWAT teams who respond when this does arise are fully capable of implementing these programs [/QUOTE]



Jen - respectfully - I find this extremely offensive. My husband is a federal officer who trains for situations like this several times a month. I assure you he knows what to do in a situation like this and knows how to train others as well. He puts his life on the line daily to protect the innocent. A little respect for our law enforcement officers wouldn't be out of line.


Luvmykids - thanks - I needed that.

This post has been edited by Bamamom on Apr 6 2007, 05:13 AM

Rhonda, i never said i don't respect our law enforcement, nor did i mean any disrespect toward you or your DH, nor did i mean to offend you. i'm just stating my opinion...i don't see the benefit of these drills in the manner in which they're being carried out, that's all.
also, in all fairness, acts of terror AND school shootings are fairly recent phenomena in the US...within the past 15-20 years for the shootings and within the past 10 for the terror (other than perhaps plane hijackings and the Achille Lauro) whereas Israelis have been living with both terrorism and random gunmen for decades so i don't think you can compare any US officer to an Israeli army officer when it comes to knowing how to handle these sorts of things.
the Israelis warned us about 911, their intelligence knew something like this would happen in the US in summer/fall of 01 and our govt didn't listen...we are not a prepared nation, plain and simple, not for terrorism and not for random gunmen which is precisely why i said what i said about how these drills are being run and who is running them. it's JMO and not meant to offend anyone. an opinion is an opinion, it's never wrong and in my case, it's not meant to change yours or anyone else's here, the bottom line is what i think, what you think, etc has little (if any) bearing on what will happen in schools or any other official places of business in the US...this is just a means to vent and express our opinions and that is all i'm doing. if you don't agree or are offended, i'm sorry and can assure you that was never my intention.

As a cop (and tactical team member) who is married to an elementary school teacher, I feel qualified and knowledgeable enough to weigh in on this. The fact is, we live in a different world than when most of us were kids. Back then, I recall the biggest threat being a stranger offering a kid candy. Today, we still have the threat of strangers (which seems to have increased exponentially), terrorist attacks, and school shootings, to name but a few.

Pre-Columbine, no one ever thought a school shooting would happen, so there was no thought of preparing for it. After experiencing that tragedy, the law enforcement and education world had to address the issue. To fail to do so would have been a tragic mistake. As a result, law enforcement changed its tactics in responding to this type of incident. School administrators, under the guidance of law enforcement and many others entities, established plans that will serve to best protect the children.

Absolutely NO plan will ever guarantee anyone's safety. They are solely meant to minimize the danger. Neither can a plan be effective, if it is not practiced and understood by those who must execute it. Before Columbine, we never trained in schools for this type of situation. Now, we regularly do this, although it is usually done when school is out for a holiday. Obviously, the only way to prepare the students to do what it is needed, is to run these types of drills.

Beleive me, these plans work! At Columbine, the student were caught unprepared and panic ensued. Kids running throught the halls made for easy targets by Klebold and Harris. Now, having been exposed to these drills, students and teachers have an understanding of what must be done. While there will always be great panic, the teachers have been taught to take immediate control of the classroom and lock it down. Without going into tactics involved, I can say that teachers now know what to do to best ensure the kids' safety.

In summary, it's tragic that we've allowed our world to reach this point. That said, we must play the hand we're dealt. We can no longer ignore danger cues and hope things will work out for the best. We must prepare ourselves, so that we can effectively reduce these dangers. Obiously, this must be tempered with restraint, so we do not instill a sense of insecurity and fear in our kids. These plans, however, when taught properly, should prepare our kids and not scare our kids. Personally, I'd rather expose my kids to the realities of the world, than to ignore them and give them the disadvantage of being unprepared.

No I don't guess you did come right out and say that but you did question their ability to do their job and their ability to protect others. That was offensive to me but probably not as much as might have come across. Today is a sensitive day for federal officers and their families - we lost one of our own through a tragic accident yesterday and the wound is fresh. It brought home the fact that law enforcement officers (local, state, and federal) are often seen as the incompetent bad guys when they are doing their jobs to the best of their abilities given the resources provided. Most, if not all, of them would lay down their lives without question to protect the ones that they are charged to protect - and often they are malinged for it.



Twelve Volt Man - you said it well. Thanks for all you do.

I agree. I think those drills are a great idea. How else would the kids know to react if there was a situation. In K, we used to have tornado and earthquake drills so we would know what to do if one of those events happened.

So you dont think its better for a plan of action to be put into place and for children and teachers to practice it so they know what to do in case of an emergency, no matter how unlikely?

Sorry but I would rather that my kids know what they should do and that my kids TEACHER know how to at least TRY to protect my child in a situation like that.

I've heard it so many times about Hurricane Katrina (and I use this as an example b/c I live in LA)- "If they had a better plan in place maybe things wouldnt have gone so wrong." Which is partly true- You can NEVER plan enough to prevent things like that from happening or from getting to a bad point, but if they had a better plan in place, maybe that situation wouldnt have been quite as bad as it was. I heard the same thing about 9/11 & the WTC.

I happen to think you can never be prepared enough and I know ppl think "It could NEVER happen to me/my family/my town." Well, we had a bomb scare/mass killing threat when I went to high school, this crazy kid started some crap & said he was going to put a bomb in the school and sit outside & anyone who ran outside he was going to shoot. I went to THE most affluent private high school in my area, and no one would have EVER thought someone would threaten to do that. My school took major safety precautions after they had this boy arrested for the threats & expelled. But if that had happened, I guarantee there wouldve been ppl all over the news saying "We never thought it would happen here."

Also- I looked it up, and school shootings & school massacres actually date back as far as the early 1900's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_massacre#Epidemics

again, the statistics quoted are mostly for the US. i realize the whole world is dangerous now but how we face it does differ. 9/11 and columbine were years ago... i don't mean that to disrespect or say it is forgotten.. but it does make me question.. why now? why now do they want to perform these drills? is there information i am not aware of? and if these events have been happening for a hundred years, then why didn't they do lockdown drills when i was in school?

as someone else posted, training the teachers what to do is important. the children trust them and even if they know something might be awry, they will likely do as she asks without question. it is the teacher that needs to be prepared and remain calm and she is the one to keep the kids in check if the need arises. i see this drill as nothing but instilling more fear in already leery kids. they teach safety and stranger danger all the time. i have discussed at length with my kids on how to stay safe. the school has a great security system.. heck, i can't even get in the parking lot... how could a stranger? by these standards, sorry my opinion is coming... they should train what to do if a plane or boat goes down even if they never step foot on one, we should do hurricane drills even if the likelihood is marginal we will ever see one where we live.. etc etc... this is my point.. where does the fear end? when fear makes us stop living.. it is not a good thing imho.

I agree with some of what you said but isn't this a little dramatic? I mean we're talking about a 15 minute drill performed once a quarter. It's not like they're taking these kids into the auditorium and having them watch tape of hostage situations so they'll know what to do. I'm just not convinced that it's THAT scary. I think if handle correctly it shouldn't be scary at all - JMO. I should also add that I don't know how they are handling things at your kids school. They may very well be scaring the crap out of them and that is wrong and I would be upset too.

As for how safe your childs school is - think about it long and hard - is it safe enough? Can it ever be? Hypothetical - a bank robber runs onto your school grounds while fleeing the police, shoots the security guard, runs into your childs room and takes your child as a hostage. The police arrive and do all they can but your child is the one that is killed. Aren't you going to question their preparation? Aren't you going to ask what could have been done to save your child? And I'm NOT saying that these types of drills will save every child in every situation- but wouldn't you rather be safe than sorry? Isn't one child saved worth the time and effort and, IMO, possible fear?

To put it another way - there is no guarentee that putting my child in a carseat is going to save his life. But he WILL be in one each and every time our car moves. Regardless. To the store or to the end of the drive. Maybe not the best analogy but I hope you see my point.

the recent killing spree on that poor Amish school, was a hop skip and a jump away (well not far anyway) and the media was all over the incident. You would think we would have some sort of lock down drill in Phila. i mean it's a pretty big city and we had a rather local incident within the past school year. after reading this thread i wish we had a practice plan in our schools. better safe than sorry in my opinion. i don't see how such a drill is any more scary than explaining why we don't speak to strangers. and we remind our kids on a daily basis how dangerous it is to speak to strangers and such. so an occasional lock down drill seems more precautionary and can be explained as such rather than scary. but than again i do live in a large U.S city (what works here may not work else ware). i would actually like to see the schools doing lockdown drills

In the USA (I know we're not talking just about America, but it's the only data I have), there were 27 violent school related deaths last year. Most of these occurred at the high school level and not inside the school buildings, which tells us that there are still areas of security that need attention, but that's a lot of violent school related deaths. Something must be working though, because this number was down from 39 the year before. The big difference was that there were many less incidents inside the school buildings last year.

While these numbers are extremely low in comparison to the number of fires that occur in schools every year (approx. 5,500 annually in the USA), it was the parents and legislators that demanded a safety plan for kids in the schools that encompasses lock down procedures. I suspect that the outcry in Canada was similar.

In NJ, there are actually several required drills that schools must complete within the year. They are fire drills (actually officially known as evacuation drills - 2x per month minimum), shelter in place (SIP - like a lock down without the doors being locked - drills required 2x per year, once in the beginning of the year and once in the early portion of the second semester), shelter in place reversed (SIPR) (SIP in place only all children are moved quickly from outside to inside - same requirements as with SIP), and lock down (same requirements as the SIP and SIPR drills). It is allowed to practice the the lock down drill and have it count toward the SIP drills so long as the drill narrative states the difference in what would be done if the staff were simply sheltering the students.

i won't live in a bubble, nor will i make my kids do so. this world is a scary place and i will prepare them for what i can.. that is my job. but i will also encourage them to live their lives to the fullest and not in constant irrational fear. fear stagnates people and instilling it at 8 and 10yo is inane to me.

no one can get into the school without being buzzed by the office. that is why i see this drill as overkill. it is like fort knox there. as for preparation, i stand by my opinion that yes, the teachers need to be prepared.. but my kids don't need to be exposed to unnecessary fear. also, if i switch schools to where i live (about 15 minutes away from their current school) they don't do these things so it is not a province or city wide regulation. it is one school with a cop on the PTA. i mean no disrespect, but i didn't sign up for a military education for my kids. they are in catholic school to focus on their faith, not hide under their desks and jump at their own shadows.

as for child seats, that causes no fear to my child. they do it from the time they are born til they are old enough to go without. i do see your point and agree it is necessary some places, i just respectfully disagree with it at my kids' school.

i just want to add thanks for all the replies. i still haven't talked to the boys since it isn't til the end of the month and i hope to talk to some other parents about it first, but many of you have given me a glimpse of the positives of this drill and i appreciate it.

I think that's a perfect idea. I'd also go over your misgivings, in a group if there's enough parental support, with school administration. Regardless of how they decide to proceed, at least they'll know two important things - that you are opposed to the school scaring your kids needlessly, and that you're watching them.