Had a bad night...Jeanne I wonder if I should, not have done this

OK so if you haven't read my other post Hanna has been having problem going #2 again, this last time she went 7 days without a BM. We gave her M of M several times before she finally went (this was Monday), but then all day yesterday she was still whining that she had to go. All day long, I changed her panties 4 times, she was saying I gotta poopy I gotta poopy then when I took her into the bathroom she refused to sit on the potty, I mean she started screaming crying saying "No I don't wanna poopy!" So, each time that she did this I would check her underwear and 4 times she had a little bit of poop in them, so it's trying to come out but she is holding it in. And I hope this isn't TMI but it was soft, not hard. When she has hard stool, it won't even leave a mark on her panties and there is barely anything to wipe, if you catch my drift, trying not to get too detailed here. So anyways, I gave her some prune juice last night. For hours on end it was back and forth to the bathroom every 10 minutes with her screaming crying as soon as she saw the potty, she sat on it maybe twice without doing anything, as soon as she got that look in her eyes like it was going to come out, she got off the potty and tried pulling her pants up screaming crying the entire time. So.... (sorry this is getting long) she fell asleep around 10:00 pm last night, I went to bed at 11:00- no sooner than I shut my eyes, probably by 11:10, she woke up screaming I gotta poop. This went on for 2 hours on and off, she woke up 4 times. Each time she would get in there, tense up, not let me put her down on the potty and scream that she wanted to go back to bed. I was getting frustrated at this point because it's nearly 1:00 in the morning by this time. I was dog tired. Brian had to work 3rd shift so it was just me and her. Finally the 5th time she done it, I got really frustrated with her, because I cannot understand why she will not go to the bathroom. So, I told her she is going to sit on the potty until she poop and I refuse to let her up because I'm tired of seeing her hurt. So...and here is where I feel awful and like the worst person in the world - I held her down on the potty. She fought me tooth and nail, I literally was practically laying on this child over the potty because she is so strong. She was screaming at the top of her lungs and crying uncontrollably, I'm talking nose running all down her face, huge crocidile tears because she knew she was going to have to go, I felt awful but what do you do, she had to go she couldn't continue like this all night and frankly, neither could I. I told her it was ok but mommy wasn't letting her go, so instead of using her muscles to hold in her BM she was trying to get me off of her, and FINALLY...FINALLY she got this look on her face and I heard her poop a little bit. She cried for a second but this sense of pure relief came over her face. She stopped crying, she did it one more time and said I'm done now, I can go to bed. I looked at her and said Please don't be mad at mommy but mommy has to do what is best for you, I asked for a hug and she hugged me and I asked her if her tummy felt better and she shook her head yes. I mean she went from blubbering uncontrollably to just as calm as calm could be and even a little smile tried to show through all the tears still falling down. After all this trouble she even said Thank you Mommy for helping me poop I felt so bad for what I had done and I had upset her so much and she still could say thank you mommy. BUT....this also happened again at 4:00 am, she wasn't throwing quite the same tantrum but she still fought me and again she finally pooped and basically the same thing happened. She slept the rest of the night. So I know the prune juice and M of M did the trick but I wonder if I did the wrong thing? I couldn't bear to see her hold it any longer because she was crying every 10 minutes and the look on her face when she sat down and it almost came out was awful, she looked scared to death. It wasn't hard this time, but partly I think that is from the M of M and the prune juice. I am taking her to the doctor tomorrow to see what his take is on this. So again, Jeanna and other who have BTDT did I do the wrong thing? Should I have let her go on her own eventually? I am at a loss at this point, because I'm sure she still has to go a little bit more today. Until I know what the doctor is going to do for her, whether it be stool softeners or what I am at a loss as to what to do until she is regulated and to get her to stop being so scared. It was terrible.

I can't tell you whether you did the right thing or not, but I did have one suggestion. Have you tried playing games or reading books to her when she starts to sit on the potty? Any kind of distraction? This works very well for my BIL. He's 9 years old and holds his poop in for DAYS and then when he is finally ready to go he's on the pot for hours but the only way he can go is if FIL sits there and plays cards with him while he's doing it. It's total distraction for him or else he tenses up and can't go. Maybe if you buy a fun game, book, or something like play make up etc that you and her can do while she's going maybe that will distract her from the process and she can go easier. Just a thought.

I to wonder what she is scared of. Do you think its just pooping in general or the potty and pooping? Did you make a HUGE deal of her actually going poop? Kait was a afraid at first of going on the potty and I woudl have her hold onto me or sit backwards so she could hold on to the lid. I dont know if you have tried these or if this will even help. I am sorry your frustrated and to be honest I might have done the same thing in your position. I hope the doc can shed some light.

I'm sorry, so miserable for both of you. Have you thought of going back to a little potty chair, or giving her a stool in front of the big potty to put her feet on? Sometimes if their feet aren't dangling they can relax more and it comes out easier.

I'm sorry, I don't have much else, just lots of hugs for both of you.

I have done everything. The few times last night that she actually sat on the potty before this incident I sat there and read books to her and played with her sticker book, I tried to bring her her magna doodle, her Video Now anything to keep her occupied. She is one of those kids where it has to be her idea. So if she asks for it she's fine, but when I take her in the bathroom before we go I say what book do you want to read or what do you want to do while you potty, and she says nothing....then she screams bloody murder when we get in there and I try handing her things to play with, anything and she throws them at me I mean I have done everything I could possibly do. I don't know what else to do. I mean she pees on the potty just fine and we make a huge deal out of it when she pees or poops even still and she has been PT'd for months, especially when she poops. She has no problem sitting on the potty for pee. For a while there she was pooping fine, she would ask us to leave the room so I would stand outside the door, she doesn't want anyone in there when she goes, so for a while that was working but then she just started this again out of the blue and I don't know why. I am at a loss for what to do anymore.

I have tried sitting her on both potty's and she plays games with me. When I sit her on the big one, she screams let me poop on the little potty so I put her on the little potty and she screams for the big potty or she gets up off the little potty and runs

What about either taking her to the store and picking out a few fun things to do and tell her that these are to go in the bathroom and only be used when she has to go poop? Or you going and picking them out, taking them home and showing her what they are and that they will be in the potty room and every time she has to go poop you can do them?

OK read these articles - they gave me some insight

http://www.fhs.mcmaster.ca/idrp/issenman/bob1.htm

http://toddlerstoday.com/resources/articles/withholding.htm

http://www.drgreene.com/21_762.html

This is exactly what everyone was saying happens. I mean but I don't know if it's she's scared to poop on the potty or poop in general because she would have problems even pooping in diapers Guess her doc will know.

Karen that is a good idea, I am off work tomorrow I think after her dr appt I will go do that.

This post has been edited by hannasmommy on Mar 29 2006, 08:50 AM

Yeah I know kids do this because like I said my BIL at 9 years old still does this. It stresses my FIL out but once he just dealt with it and they used distraction he goes but like I said he goes days without pooping and then he's in there for hours.

Oh, poor Hannah and poor LeaAnn. I'm at work right now, and I can't talk very long- but I will tell you that your reaction was very understandable- and your post brought back alot of bad memories for me. You're human, and it's inevitable that somewhere along the line, you just run out of patience. I had some not so proud moments with Corey in the bathroom, and I believe Brenda did too with Jamison. The anxiety is coming from within the child- you are not causing it- but you can minimize it or make it worse by your reaction to it.
At this point, you've simply got to insist on the Miralax. That will take the ability to hold onto her poop away from her. She will have no choice but to go. And you need to keep that up for awhile, for us, it took about 1 month of soft, easy poops before the sheer terror and bad memories and associations started to subside for Corey. It also gave her intestines or colon or wherever the poop gets stored a chance to shrink back to a normal size, and she would once again be able to recognize when she needs to poop in a more timely manner. Prune juice and M of M and other dietary manipulations are not gonna cut it when it gets to this point. Put her on the Miralax, and I PROMISE you it will get better in a little while. The issue still pops up every now and then for Corey, but we just give a dose or 2 of Miralax and the problem goes away.

This problem completely dominated my life for a LONG time and was making the entire family miserable. We couldn't even go anywhere as a family, and she was not fun to be around- almost depressed. Now, I have my sweet happy child back, and I'm telling you- don't leave that dr's office w/o the prescription. I saw 3 different drs before someone finally took me seriously about this.
Good luck and keep me posted.

Hugs to you first of all because I know EXACTLY what you are going through. I agree with Jeanne--I have done all sorts of things I regret trying to get the child to poop. They have amazing control and you just have to override that with medication--not M of M or even prune juice as Jeanne said---ask for Miralax (the generic is Glycolax). It was the best medication we could have asked for. It is tasteless/odorless --Jama doesn't even know she is taking it. It takes a couple of days to kick in and a little while to figure out what dosage she'll require but in a week, you will see a different child. We could not even let Jamison play outside with friends a lot during the poop-holding times because her mood was all over the place. She had no ability to control her emotions. We really saw a different kid after it got under control.

Don't beat yourself up over the decision to force her to poop-- I'm sure I did something similar--I threatened, bribed, pleaded, rewared etc. Nothing was consistant though until she was unable to control it any longer (through medication).

I hope you get the answers you need and again, as Jeanne said, don't walk out of the doctors office without getting them!

Keep us posted!

This post has been edited by Jamison'smama on Mar 29 2006, 11:44 AM

I plan on printing off the articles that I've read and taking them to him and saying look this is where she's at and 2 of these 3 articles suggest stool softeners, the other one suggests that but also suggests some type of mineral oil as well, I would feel more comfortable talking with my doc anyways before doing that anyways. I am going to let him know how long this has been going on and that by Day 3 with no poop, this starts to happen and this carries on for days at a time until finally she has no option but to go because her body will no longer let her hold it in. The articles said that their intestinal tract I believe it is, increases in size when they start to do this to accomodate the back-up of #2 that they won't let come out, they said with stool softeners, they have no option to hold it in anymore and it's soft as well so the intestinal tract shrinks back again once this goes on for a few weeks and then they are able to recognize that they have to again in a more timely manner. Basically the exact same thing you just said. But this is everything I am going to tell him and if he isn't giving in I'm begging. The doctor she is seeing tomorrow though I love. He is really nice and he always listens and takes actions, he is the one that finally suggested tubes in her ears after she had been on practically 20 different antibiotics for her horrible ear infections that were not working. He's pretty young and he takes in everything we say.

Yes her mood changes for days at a time until she finally goes. It's terrible, she goes from happy and playing to screaming and crying within seconds, and this goes on for days every few minutes! She can't sleep right, she can't eat right, she can't do anything. I feel so bad for her, but that is why I did what I did because I knew she had to go, that was the only thing I could think of to do. I felt awful but I think once she did and felt relief she knew why I did it. Bless her little heart, this has to be awful for her.

I had a one yr old that was having trouble pooping, and it turned out he had a fistula. That is a small tear in the outside or just inside the rectum, it hurts and stings terrible when they try to go, from the dialation, so it makes kids not want to go. My dr gave us some us some miralax also, it was to make the poop real soft so that the rectum could heal, fistulas can heal themselves. But he did caution us that its good to use laxatives sparingly, because laxatives cause the muscles in the rectum, to relax and if they are continuely forced to relaxed they will at some point not work, and your body becomes dependant on the laxatives to go.

I dont know if thats any help. I hope every thing works out ok. I think the idea of taking your dgt to the store and getting her something she wants to do in the bathroom is a good idea. we read a lot in there now.

I am also a nurse if you have any questions about meds or procedures maybe I can help.

stacy

I too worried about using laxatives and Jamison becoming dependant on them. I researched the heck out of this medication and spoke with the doctor about this (as did Jeanne). Our doctor put my mind at ease --Jamison was on the medication for almost a year (off and on the last 6 months) and our pediatrician informed me that GI specialist put children on the meds for up to 2+ years as needed. It is more important to get this under control. He also told us about the changing of the digestive tract to accomodate the back-up. He put to rest all the worries about laxatives and dependency and just focused on getting it under control.

If it makes you feel better, I used for force a suppository in my poor child when it would go on too long--pure torture--(you gotta do what you gotta do ) The upside is she would go within 2 hours. Not worth it though now that I know there is another option!

I think maybe you should tell the Dr she should be on a daily stool softner

I had to do that w/ Zach also. He was fine when he started potty training & then just when I thought we were fully there he started not wanting to poop. Not trying to be gross, but his was b/c he ended up passing one that was too big so it hurt coming out. It made him scared to do it again. I wish I would have heard about Miralax then. In fact I had never even heard of a stool softner until I had Kailynn. Anyways I ended up having to force a suppository & then hold this screaming kicking kid until he was done. He finally got over his fear & has been fine since. Hopefully the Dr. will be able to help you help Hanna to go on her own.

Thanks everyone for your help. Looks like the consensus all agrees she should be on a stool softener daily. I have no problem with that if it will help which it makes sense that it would. I really appreciate it, I don't really have a whole lot of people to talk to about this, because Brian's family is like give her karo syrup, give her prune juice, blah blah and I'm like it's deeper than that you just don't understand, I can't constantly give her things that act as laxatives. My mom and dad on the other hand also mentioned stool softeners. I will update you guys tomorrow or Friday as to what the doc says. Her appt is at 10:00 am tomorrow. Then I also have appts the rest of the day, dentist, OBGYN, podiatrist, you name it I got it, so if I can't update tomorrow I promise I will on Friday! Thanks again! You guys are the best

LeaAnn I'm so sorry. That must be a terrible thing to go through. I don't have any advice (Thank God for Jeanne and Brenda) I just want you to know that I would have done the same thing in your situation. We all have some not so proud parenting moments. Don't beat yourself up over it. She will be okay. I hope the doctor is cooperative and has lots of answers for you. It sounds like the right thing to do is put her on that prescription. Good luck sweetie.